Re: postgresql-archive.org

Hi,

I kinda wonder if the postgres community shouldn't do something about
http://www.postgresql-archive.org/. The name makes it sound somewhat
official, but it doesn't appear to be. At least I do not know who runs
it. Does somebody else?

Given the, presumed, unofficial nature I'm not really ok with them
serving ads while benefiting from an official sounding name.

But even without that issue, I think there's two reasonable concerns:
For one, we do not know how reliable the operator is. They could be
manipulating e.g. attachements to contain maliscious contents. The
second, and more likely, issue is that it's likely that the offering
will cease to exist and the links in our archive will point into the
void.

Greetings,

Andres Freund

On 2018-Aug-22, Andres Freund wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I kinda wonder if the postgres community shouldn't do something about
> http://www.postgresql-archive.org/. The name makes it sound somewhat
> official, but it doesn't appear to be. At least I do not know who runs
> it. Does somebody else?

It says at the bottom "Hugo at Nabble".

I'm not sure what could PGDG possibly do about it? As I understand we
do have a trademark registration in Canada, but is that useful for
anything? According to whois, the registrar is in Bahamas.

--
Álvaro Herrera https://www.2ndQuadrant.com/
PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Remote DBA, Training & Services

On 2018-08-22 16:41:20 -0300, Alvaro Herrera wrote:
> On 2018-Aug-22, Andres Freund wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > I kinda wonder if the postgres community shouldn't do something about
> > http://www.postgresql-archive.org/. The name makes it sound somewhat
> > official, but it doesn't appear to be. At least I do not know who runs
> > it. Does somebody else?
>
> It says at the bottom "Hugo at Nabble".

> I'm not sure what could PGDG possibly do about it? As I understand we
> do have a trademark registration in Canada, but is that useful for
> anything? According to whois, the registrar is in Bahamas.

I think just a friendly attempt at a ping would be good. Should push
actually come to shove, I don't think the registrar is that relevant,
we could contact .org etc directly.

Greetings,

Andres Freund

Hi,
I understand thoses questions, and I'm the first unhappy with thoses ads,
or with attachments, but
It is the only really easy thin client to monitor ALL the pg mailing lists
with a smart phone ;0(
Regards
PAscal

--
Sent from: http://www.postgresql-archive.org/PostgreSQL-www-f2176062.html

On 2018-08-22 20:44, Andres Freund wrote:
> On 2018-08-22 16:41:20 -0300, Alvaro Herrera wrote:
>> On 2018-Aug-22, Andres Freund wrote:
>>
>> > Hi,
>> >
>> > I kinda wonder if the postgres community shouldn't do something about
>> > http://www.postgresql-archive.org/. The name makes it sound somewhat
>> > official, but it doesn't appear to be. At least I do not know who runs
>> > it. Does somebody else?
>>
>> It says at the bottom "Hugo at Nabble".
>
>> I'm not sure what could PGDG possibly do about it? As I understand we
>> do have a trademark registration in Canada, but is that useful for
>> anything? According to whois, the registrar is in Bahamas.
>
> I think just a friendly attempt at a ping would be good. Should push
> actually come to shove, I don't think the registrar is that relevant,
> we could contact .org etc directly.

If it's useful, this is the kind of things I can probably get done
fairly
easily. :)

Pascal points out that it might actually be a useful service for some.

Maybe if we start by asking them if they'd be ok to drop the ads? And
maybe
encourage them to turn on https too, for user safety?

+ Justin

On 2018-Aug-22, Andres Freund wrote:

> On 2018-08-22 16:41:20 -0300, Alvaro Herrera wrote:
> > On 2018-Aug-22, Andres Freund wrote:
> >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > I kinda wonder if the postgres community shouldn't do something about
> > > http://www.postgresql-archive.org/. The name makes it sound somewhat
> > > official, but it doesn't appear to be. At least I do not know who runs
> > > it. Does somebody else?
> >
> > It says at the bottom "Hugo at Nabble".
>
> > I'm not sure what could PGDG possibly do about it? As I understand we
> > do have a trademark registration in Canada, but is that useful for
> > anything? According to whois, the registrar is in Bahamas.
>
> I think just a friendly attempt at a ping would be good.

What would a friendly ping say? "Would you kindly take the service
down"?

BTW, http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=4808:yra6oz.2.1

--
Álvaro Herrera https://www.2ndQuadrant.com/
PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Remote DBA, Training & Services

On 2018-08-22 21:14:05 +0100, Justin Clift wrote:
> On 2018-08-22 20:44, Andres Freund wrote:
> > On 2018-08-22 16:41:20 -0300, Alvaro Herrera wrote:
> > > On 2018-Aug-22, Andres Freund wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > I kinda wonder if the postgres community shouldn't do something about
> > > > http://www.postgresql-archive.org/. The name makes it sound somewhat
> > > > official, but it doesn't appear to be. At least I do not know who runs
> > > > it. Does somebody else?
> > >
> > > It says at the bottom "Hugo at Nabble".
> >
> > > I'm not sure what could PGDG possibly do about it? As I understand we
> > > do have a trademark registration in Canada, but is that useful for
> > > anything? According to whois, the registrar is in Bahamas.
> >
> > I think just a friendly attempt at a ping would be good. Should push
> > actually come to shove, I don't think the registrar is that relevant,
> > we could contact .org etc directly.
>
> If it's useful, this is the kind of things I can probably get done fairly
> easily. :)

Heh ;)

> Pascal points out that it might actually be a useful service for some.

I don't quite get why, but I don't really care as long as it's not done
under an official sounding name...

> Maybe if we start by asking them if they'd be ok to drop the ads? And maybe
> encourage them to turn on https too, for user safety?

While I'm also a bit ambivalent about the ads, I'm not sure just *how*
much I'm bothered if it doesn't sound like it's a pg.o thing.

What I definitely do not want, either way, is more links pointing
towards it. Based any sort of past experience they're not going to be
around in a couple years, and it's incredibly frustrating to attempt to
figure out where a link is supposed to go to years later, when chasing
down an obscure bug.

Greetings,

Andres Freund

On 2018-08-22 17:23:01 -0300, Alvaro Herrera wrote:
> On 2018-Aug-22, Andres Freund wrote:
>
> > On 2018-08-22 16:41:20 -0300, Alvaro Herrera wrote:
> > > On 2018-Aug-22, Andres Freund wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > I kinda wonder if the postgres community shouldn't do something about
> > > > http://www.postgresql-archive.org/. The name makes it sound somewhat
> > > > official, but it doesn't appear to be. At least I do not know who runs
> > > > it. Does somebody else?
> > >
> > > It says at the bottom "Hugo at Nabble".
> >
> > > I'm not sure what could PGDG possibly do about it? As I understand we
> > > do have a trademark registration in Canada, but is that useful for
> > > anything? According to whois, the registrar is in Bahamas.
> >
> > I think just a friendly attempt at a ping would be good.
>
> What would a friendly ping say? "Would you kindly take the service
> down"?

Maybe something like "Could you please use a domain that makes it
clearer that this isn't a service provided by pg.o, and also clearly
state so on the website?". Plus some surrounding friendly fluff
explaining why? Maybe also mention https etc.

That doesn't really address how their weird archive URLs are being used,
but I don't quite know what to do about that :(

> BTW, http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=4808:yra6oz.2.1

Isn't https://www.ic.gc.ca/app/opic-cipo/trdmrks/srch/viewTrademark?id=1017132&lang=eng&tab=reg
the relevant bit here?

Greetings,

Andres Freund

> On Aug 22, 2018, at 3:49 PM, legrand legrand <legrand_legrand(at)hotmail(dot)com> wrote:
>
> Hi,
> I understand thoses questions, and I'm the first unhappy with thoses ads,
> or with attachments, but
> It is the only really easy thin client to monitor ALL the pg mailing lists
> with a smart phone ;0(

We’ve made some improvements to our mailing archives by making them more mobile
friendly in their design. It still needs some work, but it is much better than
before.

It does not have all the same functionality that I see on that site, but that
is perhaps something we can work on adding if people feel that would be helpful
for interacting with the community.

Jonathan

On 2018-Aug-22, Andres Freund wrote:

> On 2018-08-22 17:23:01 -0300, Alvaro Herrera wrote:
> > On 2018-Aug-22, Andres Freund wrote:

> > What would a friendly ping say? "Would you kindly take the service
> > down"?
>
> Maybe something like "Could you please use a domain that makes it
> clearer that this isn't a service provided by pg.o, and also clearly
> state so on the website?". Plus some surrounding friendly fluff
> explaining why? Maybe also mention https etc.

Ok ...

> That doesn't really address how their weird archive URLs are being used,
> but I don't quite know what to do about that :(

I think if it were possible to obtain the message-id based on their
URLs, it would be a lot more manageable; we could even have something
like a bot that replies to such URLs with our own URLs.

> > BTW, http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=4808:yra6oz.2.1
>
> Isn't https://www.ic.gc.ca/app/opic-cipo/trdmrks/srch/viewTrademark?id=1017132&lang=eng&tab=reg
> the relevant bit here?

I don't know, isn't .org in the US jurisdiction?

(The reason I brought up the registrar earlier is because I was thinking
we might need to invoke the Bahamas trademark office, but that's
probably wrong.)

--
Álvaro Herrera https://www.2ndQuadrant.com/
PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Remote DBA, Training & Services

On 22/08/2018 21:08, Andres Freund wrote:
> I kinda wonder if the postgres community shouldn't do something about
> http://www.postgresql-archive.org/. The name makes it sound somewhat
> official, but it doesn't appear to be. At least I do not know who runs
> it. Does somebody else?

I understand the concern, but I don't think there is anything we can do.
Our trademark policy allows this kind of thing.

The truth is, our archive search and navigation is not good, so there is
a third-party opportunity for a better one. If we don't like that, we
should make ours better.

--
Peter Eisentraut http://www.2ndQuadrant.com/
PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Remote DBA, Training & Services

> On Aug 22, 2018, at 5:38 PM, Peter Eisentraut <peter(dot)eisentraut(at)2ndquadrant(dot)com> wrote:
>
> The truth is, our archive search and navigation is not good, so there is
> a third-party opportunity for a better one. If we don't like that, we
> should make ours better.

+1. I’m going to add this to something -www can research and figure out
what we can do after we get a few pre-release projects done.

Jonathan

Hi,

On 2018-08-22 23:38:17 +0200, Peter Eisentraut wrote:
> On 22/08/2018 21:08, Andres Freund wrote:
> > I kinda wonder if the postgres community shouldn't do something about
> > http://www.postgresql-archive.org/. The name makes it sound somewhat
> > official, but it doesn't appear to be. At least I do not know who runs
> > it. Does somebody else?
>
> I understand the concern, but I don't think there is anything we can do.
> Our trademark policy allows this kind of thing.

Not by my reading, and if so, it'd be useless. But I agree it could be
more clearly stated. If so, afaict we couldn't prevent people from
distributing a backdoored version of postgres as postgres, which'd be
clearly absurd.

> The truth is, our archive search and navigation is not good, so there is
> a third-party opportunity for a better one. If we don't like that, we
> should make ours better.

Sure, my point isn't that we should forbid them to operate, but to get
them to use a name that doesn't sound official, and perhaps note that as
well.

Greetings,

Andres Freund

On 2018-08-22 22:48, Andres Freund wrote:
> On 2018-08-22 23:38:17 +0200, Peter Eisentraut wrote:
>> On 22/08/2018 21:08, Andres Freund wrote:
>> > I kinda wonder if the postgres community shouldn't do something about
>> > http://www.postgresql-archive.org/. The name makes it sound somewhat
>> > official, but it doesn't appear to be. At least I do not know who runs
>> > it. Does somebody else?
>>
>> I understand the concern, but I don't think there is anything we can
>> do.
>> Our trademark policy allows this kind of thing.

One important thing which seems to have been missed so far, is that it's
fairly common for places to "stop doing <whatever>" if they're asked
nicely
by the OSS project they're doing it in regards to.

It wouldn't be at all surprising if they're thinking they're doing
something
positive for the PG Community.

The whole "we could threaten ..." thing should not be part of our game
plan.
At least, not at this stage. ;)

> Not by my reading, and if so, it'd be useless. But I agree it could be
> more clearly stated. If so, afaict we couldn't prevent people from
> distributing a backdoored version of postgres as postgres, which'd be
> clearly absurd.

Actual malware things get their own special case handling. ;)

>> The truth is, our archive search and navigation is not good, so there
>> is
>> a third-party opportunity for a better one. If we don't like that, we
>> should make ours better.
>
> Sure, my point isn't that we should forbid them to operate, but to get
> them to use a name that doesn't sound official, and perhaps note that
> as
> well.

Thinking about it more, is this something we really want to be control
freaky
about? :D

I'm mostly inclined to think we should be encouraging places to set up
things
which help our Community. This seems like one of them?

As an alternative idea, is it feasible to actually make them an official
part of our Community in some mutually useful way?

Just from the perspective it might help them be around for longer (thus
maybe addressing the potential busted links in ture thing), and they may
have expertise that could be useful.

Caveat -> That's only if they seem to be decent operators though. If
they're
known to be doing anything dodgy, that's an automatic black flag. ;)

+ Justin

Hi,

On 2018-08-22 23:49:54 +0100, Justin Clift wrote:
> On 2018-08-22 22:48, Andres Freund wrote:
> > On 2018-08-22 23:38:17 +0200, Peter Eisentraut wrote:
> > > On 22/08/2018 21:08, Andres Freund wrote:
> > > > I kinda wonder if the postgres community shouldn't do something about
> > > > http://www.postgresql-archive.org/. The name makes it sound somewhat
> > > > official, but it doesn't appear to be. At least I do not know who runs
> > > > it. Does somebody else?
> > >
> > > I understand the concern, but I don't think there is anything we can
> > > do.
> > > Our trademark policy allows this kind of thing.
>
> One important thing which seems to have been missed so far, is that it's
> fairly common for places to "stop doing <whatever>" if they're asked nicely
> by the OSS project they're doing it in regards to.

Huh? I explicitly suggested that as the first step?

> Caveat -> That's only if they seem to be decent operators though. If
> they're
> known to be doing anything dodgy, that's an automatic black flag. ;)

They intercept attachement links to display adds. Pretty dubious ones,
with links to some "download manager" one time (I did not download that
one), and now to a "resume-builder". Using popunders. So yea, this is
dodgy.

Greetings,

Andres Freund

On 2018-Aug-22, Andres Freund wrote:

> On 2018-08-22 23:49:54 +0100, Justin Clift wrote:
>
> > Caveat -> That's only if they seem to be decent operators though. If
> > they're
> > known to be doing anything dodgy, that's an automatic black flag. ;)
>
> They intercept attachement links to display adds. Pretty dubious ones,
> with links to some "download manager" one time (I did not download that
> one), and now to a "resume-builder". Using popunders. So yea, this is
> dodgy.

the sourceforge of email archives!

--
Álvaro Herrera https://www.2ndQuadrant.com/
PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Remote DBA, Training & Services

> On Aug 22, 2018, at 12:08 PM, Andres Freund <andres(at)anarazel(dot)de> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I kinda wonder if the postgres community shouldn't do something about
> http://www.postgresql-archive.org/. The name makes it sound somewhat
> official, but it doesn't appear to be. At least I do not know who runs
> it. Does somebody else?

There are lots of domains that contain "postgresql", most of which
contain postgresql-related content and which aren't operated by
PGDG.

>
> Given the, presumed, unofficial nature I'm not really ok with them
> serving ads while benefiting from an official sounding name.
>
> But even without that issue, I think there's two reasonable concerns:
> For one, we do not know how reliable the operator is. They could be
> manipulating e.g. attachements to contain maliscious contents. The
> second, and more likely, issue is that it's likely that the offering
> will cease to exist and the links in our archive will point into the
> void.

There are two entities involved. The archiving is being done by nabble.com,
which is what they do. They do it quite well, though I find their advertising
overly aggressive and crappy, even for an advertising backed service.

And there's the person who requested Nabble archive our lists and
pointed postgresql-archive.org at it. (They may be one and the same,
but it really doesn't matter).

Neither of them is doing anything wrong. They're, between them, providing
a service we don't.

If "we" wanted them to stop archiving "our" lists then I'm sure nabble would
stop if asked (or the nabble bot could be unsubscribed). The main thing
that would do would be to remove a service some people find useful.

Making our archives more useful so that nabble provides no added value
does seem like a more productive first step.

Cheers,
Steve

On 2018-08-23 00:10, Andres Freund wrote:
> On 2018-08-22 23:49:54 +0100, Justin Clift wrote:
>> On 2018-08-22 22:48, Andres Freund wrote:
>> > On 2018-08-22 23:38:17 +0200, Peter Eisentraut wrote:
>> > > On 22/08/2018 21:08, Andres Freund wrote:
>> > > > I kinda wonder if the postgres community shouldn't do something about
>> > > > http://www.postgresql-archive.org/. The name makes it sound somewhat
>> > > > official, but it doesn't appear to be. At least I do not know who runs
>> > > > it. Does somebody else?
>> > >
>> > > I understand the concern, but I don't think there is anything we can
>> > > do.
>> > > Our trademark policy allows this kind of thing.
>>
>> One important thing which seems to have been missed so far, is that
>> it's
>> fairly common for places to "stop doing <whatever>" if they're asked
>> nicely
>> by the OSS project they're doing it in regards to.
>
> Huh? I explicitly suggested that as the first step?

Ugh. Sorry yeah, long day. :/

>> Caveat -> That's only if they seem to be decent operators though. If
>> they're
>> known to be doing anything dodgy, that's an automatic black flag. ;)
>
> They intercept attachement links to display adds. Pretty dubious ones,
> with links to some "download manager" one time (I did not download that
> one), and now to a "resume-builder". Using popunders. So yea, this is
> dodgy.

Yeah, agreed. Those put the operator into dodgy territory.

+ Justin

On 2018-08-23 01:12, Steve Atkins wrote:
>> On Aug 22, 2018, at 12:08 PM, Andres Freund <andres(at)anarazel(dot)de>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I kinda wonder if the postgres community shouldn't do something about
>> http://www.postgresql-archive.org/. The name makes it sound somewhat
>> official, but it doesn't appear to be. At least I do not know who
>> runs
>> it. Does somebody else?
>
> There are lots of domains that contain "postgresql", most of which
> contain postgresql-related content and which aren't operated by
> PGDG.
>
>>
>> Given the, presumed, unofficial nature I'm not really ok with them
>> serving ads while benefiting from an official sounding name.
>>
>> But even without that issue, I think there's two reasonable concerns:
>> For one, we do not know how reliable the operator is. They could be
>> manipulating e.g. attachements to contain maliscious contents. The
>> second, and more likely, issue is that it's likely that the offering
>> will cease to exist and the links in our archive will point into the
>> void.
>
> There are two entities involved. The archiving is being done by
> nabble.com,
> which is what they do. They do it quite well, though I find their
> advertising
> overly aggressive and crappy, even for an advertising backed service.
>
> And there's the person who requested Nabble archive our lists and
> pointed postgresql-archive.org at it. (They may be one and the same,
> but it really doesn't matter).
>
> Neither of them is doing anything wrong. They're, between them,
> providing
> a service we don't.
>
> If "we" wanted them to stop archiving "our" lists then I'm sure nabble
> would
> stop if asked (or the nabble bot could be unsubscribed). The main thing
> that would do would be to remove a service some people find useful.
>
> Making our archives more useful so that nabble provides no added value
> does seem like a more productive first step.

In the meantime, would it be optimal for us to try and get that
postgresql-archive host to remove the sleazy ads?

From a slightly different angle, maybe if we set up some kind of
"official"
Nabble thing instead - without any ads or sleazy crap - which we could
point
to instead? (not sure if this is even possible, it's just a concept)

If that would work, then the postgresql-archive place wouldn't be
providing
a useful unique service to our Community any more, so we could direct
them
towards shutting down or focusing on some other project down.

Thoughts? :)

+ Justin

Nabble support starts from http://support.nabble.com/
there are many informations regarding Google Ads, Https, ...

Regarding actual admin of postgresql-archive, Hugo <Nabble>
I will try to contact him (no activity since october 4th 2012),
if that address is not active any more, maybe we can ask Nabble
to give one of us Admin rigths ?

Regards
PAscal

--
Sent from: http://www.postgresql-archive.org/PostgreSQL-www-f2176062.html

On 2018-08-23 08:38, legrand legrand wrote:
> Nabble support starts from http://support.nabble.com/
> there are many informations regarding Google Ads, Https, ...
>
> Regarding actual admin of postgresql-archive, Hugo <Nabble>
> I will try to contact him (no activity since october 4th 2012),
> if that address is not active any more, maybe we can ask Nabble
> to give one of us Admin rigths ?

Sure, give it a go if you want. I was offering as I've found
previously with stuff like this that having a @postgresql.org
address can sometimes assist.

If they're not sure that you're really doing this on behalf
of the PG project, feel free to point them at this message
in the PG archives. Hmmm, which may even be archived on the
site in question shortly too. :D

+ Justin

First modification has been done by Nabble team:

"This is a postgreSQL mailing list archive and forum provided by Nabble. It
is not an official postgresql website." has been added to the website
header.

Other points are still discussed at
http://support.nabble.com/How-to-join-Hugo-lt-Nabble-gt-owner-of-postgresql-archive-org-td7601285.html#a7601302

Any comment is welcome.
Regards
PAscal

--
Sent from: http://www.postgresql-archive.org/PostgreSQL-www-f2176062.html

On 2018-08-27 21:19, legrand legrand wrote:
> First modification has been done by Nabble team:
>
> "This is a postgreSQL mailing list archive and forum provided by
> Nabble. It
> is not an official postgresql website." has been added to the website
> header.
>
> Other points are still discussed at
> http://support.nabble.com/How-to-join-Hugo-lt-Nabble-gt-owner-of-postgresql-archive-org-td7601285.html#a7601302
>
> Any comment is welcome.
> Regards
> PAscal

Thanks PAscal and Álvaro, that looks to be constructive and heading
things in a good direction.

For reference info (and please pass this on), the HTTPS thing is fairly
important. It's not due to any kind of care factor for Google search
rankings, it's more basic security these days.

There are **many** tools available (including OSS libraries) for
modifying
unencrypted http on the fly these days. Both for outright nefarious
purposes (ugh), but also in use by both ISPs, and governments in
countries
with less than stellar reputations.

Unfortunately, it's now very common. Thus the uptake of Lets Encrypt
and
similar, which at least helps. :)

Regards and best wishes,

Justin Clift

HTTPS is done

Regards
PAscal

--
Sent from: http://www.postgresql-archive.org/PostgreSQL-www-f2176062.html

On 2018-08-31 12:40, legrand legrand wrote:
> HTTPS is done

Just tested here, it's yep HTTP is automatically bouncing to
HTTPS, so that's also coming along decently.

Thanks for taking the time on this PAscal. :)

Have the sleazy (eg pop-under, etc) ads also been removed?

(I run an ad-blocker permanently, so it's difficult for me
to check this personally)

Regards and best wishes,

Justin Clift

Justin Clift-2 wrote
> Have the sleazy (eg pop-under, etc) ads also been removed?
>
> (I run an ad-blocker permanently, so it's difficult for me to check this
> personally)

Not yet, but Franklin<Nabble> said:
"We will address your list of issues over the next few weeks and I will post
here
(http://support.nabble.com/How-to-join-Hugo-lt-Nabble-gt-owner-of-postgresql-archive-org-td7601285.html)
as each is fixed."

Regards
PAscal

--
Sent from: http://www.postgresql-archive.org/PostgreSQL-www-f2176062.html

"Add Attachments" has been disabled

Regards
PAscal

--
Sent from: http://www.postgresql-archive.org/PostgreSQL-www-f2176062.html

Raven<Nabble> wrote
*"Disable popup ads" is now "Disable ads", so a user can disable all ads on
the site. *

Nabble has answered main concerns raised by PostgreSQL community,
I would propose to thanks them by witting a specific pg NEWS.

Who could help to do that ?

To finish here are the mailing lists not already included on Nabble found in
/list/ That I would ask to add:

- pgsql-women Discussion about how to increase the number of women in the
PostgreSQL international community. All genders welcome.
- buildfarm-members Discussion list for buildfarm animal caretakers
- pgsql-gui-dev Development of GUI tools for use with PostgreSQL
- pgsql-translators Translation announcements, coordination and discussions
- pgsql-pkg-debian Discussion of Debian packaging
- pgsql-pkg-yum YUM packaging
- psycopg

Feedback is welcome
Regards
PAscal

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Hi,

On 2018-09-14 12:39:20 -0700, legrand legrand wrote:
> Raven<Nabble> wrote
> *"Disable popup ads" is now "Disable ads", so a user can disable all ads on
> the site. *

I fail to see how that addresses the issue that there's a lot of scammy
ads on that page for new visitor. Having ads on by default, under a name
that sounds like it's sanctioned by the community, makes me quite
uncomfortable.

If this were postgres-archive-by-nabble.com, I'd be much less concerned.

> Nabble has answered main concerns raised by PostgreSQL community,
> I would propose to thanks them by witting a specific pg NEWS.

It hasn't in my opinion.

Greetings,

Andres Freund

Hi,

Just to remember all the concerns addressed:
- header has now :
*This is a postgreSQL mailing list archive and forum provided by Nabble. It
is not an official postgresql website*.
- site has been changed from http to https,
- it is not possible any more to add attachments,
- remaining mailing lists have been added,
- ads can be disabled, but yes they are still ON by default for new users.

And all this was just 2 months ago ...

Regards
PAscal

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Sent from: http://www.postgresql-archive.org/PostgreSQL-www-f2176062.html

On 2018-11-13 16:18:43 -0700, legrand legrand wrote:
> Just to remember all the concerns addressed:
> - header has now :
> *This is a postgreSQL mailing list archive and forum provided by Nabble. It
> is not an official postgresql website*.
> - site has been changed from http to https,
> - it is not possible any more to add attachments,
> - remaining mailing lists have been added,
> - ads can be disabled, but yes they are still ON by default for new users.

Sure, there's been some progress. But it's still sending unreadable
messages with broken quoting, and it's still making money using an
official sounding name. Those are the big things imo.

Greetings,

Andres Freund

Andres Freund wrote
> But it's still sending unreadable messages with broken quoting,
> and it's still making money using an official sounding name.
> Those are the big things imo.

I was not aware of your first point about "broken quoting",
maybe we could ask them to fix that as well
(send me exemples off-list I will transmit).

Regarding Ads, I'm not pleased too, We could try (again)
to ask them to change that ... but today they offer a very efficient
mobile solution for free ;o(

Regards
PAscal

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On Wed, Nov 14, 2018 at 2:21 PM legrand legrand <legrand_legrand(at)hotmail(dot)com>
wrote:

> Andres Freund wrote
> > But it's still sending unreadable messages with broken quoting,
> > and it's still making money using an official sounding name.
> > Those are the big things imo.
>
> I was not aware of your first point about "broken quoting",
> maybe we could ask them to fix that as well
> (send me exemples off-list I will transmit).
>
> Regarding Ads, I'm not pleased too, We could try (again)
> to ask them to change that ... but today they offer a very efficient
> mobile solution for free ;o(
>

It is absolutely not free.

At the first, it uses ads that track the visitors, so by definition it's
not free to those.

It also causes extra work for the pginfra team, due to at (ir)regular
intervals sending broken emails that get stuck and causes alerts. And it
causes extra work for some of our other teams, because people having
problems with the service contact us trying to get help (everything from it
doesn't work at all to they have lost their password are the kind of
issues that show up on our side, and have to be resolved.). Sure, they can
just refer those to Nabble, but that also takes time, and while it's not a
huge amount, every little bit adds up.

And then of course the issue that Andres is referring to, which depending
on how bad it is (I'm also not sure exactly which one he means) affects
hundreds or thousands of people reading them.

So it's definitely not neutral zero-cost to the community.

--
Magnus Hagander
Me: https://www.hagander.net/ <http://www.hagander.net/>
Work: https://www.redpill-linpro.com/ <http://www.redpill-linpro.com/>

Then, are mails received from www.postgresql-archive.org by nabble,
the biggest problem after Google Ads ?

if yes, we can ask them to remove the "reply" button from messages ...
there are not so much people using this feature (except me ;o)

To remove Google Ads, one solution would be to promote other websites,
*mobile friendly* like
https://postgresql.markmail.org/search/?q=
that is *Google Ads free*, *display latest messages*, permits to define a
set of filters or mailing lists ...
but has lots of spams ;o(

Are there other sites with such features ?

Sorry I don't consider
/list
https://postgrespro.com/list
as such alternativs :o(

Regards
PAscal

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Sent from: http://www.postgresql-archive.org/PostgreSQL-www-f2176062.html

Greetings,

* legrand legrand (legrand_legrand(at)hotmail(dot)com) wrote:
> Then, are mails received from www.postgresql-archive.org by nabble,
> the biggest problem after Google Ads ?
>
> if yes, we can ask them to remove the "reply" button from messages ...
> there are not so much people using this feature (except me ;o)

We should definitely do this, regardless of anything else. There is
absolutely no sane way for nabble to send emails on behalf of someone
else without it looking *very* much like SPAM, thanks to DKIM/DMARC/SPF.

> To remove Google Ads, one solution would be to promote other websites,
> *mobile friendly* like
> https://postgresql.markmail.org/search/?q=
> that is *Google Ads free*, *display latest messages*, permits to define a
> set of filters or mailing lists ...
> but has lots of spams ;o(
>
> Are there other sites with such features ?
>
> Sorry I don't consider
> /list
> https://postgrespro.com/list
> as such alternativs :o(

Then let's discuss what those other systems do that we don't and see if
we can't improve our list archives.

Thanks!

Stephen

Hello,

>To remove Google Ads, one solution would be to promote other websites,
>*mobile friendly* like
>https://postgresql.markmail.org/search/?q=
>that is *Google Ads free*, *display latest messages*, permits to define a
>set of filters or mailing lists ...
>but has lots of spams ;o(

Owner of that site has renewed its account to remove spam for commiters
list,
but hasn't gone to the end of the process for hacker lists ...
that is not refreshed any more (since november 25th ;o(

One other very interesting site is
http://micronetinternational.com/index.pl/en/00/https/www.postgresql-archive.org/
totally Google ADS free !!!

If that would have to be developed inside postgres.org website,
the (my) requirements should be:
- message from the same thread should be grouped,
- with number of answers / latest answer date /mailing list name
(general, hackers, performances, ...)
- sorted by latest answer desc
- can be limited to last day
- when opening this group, link to latest message should be opened

Regards
PAscal

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